Curse

Moral55 · Jan 01, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Who cares about end games items 5k? OMG
And runs? You can't run to halve of these places anyways and if a change in the environment kills a service... well to bad sucks to be you.

/Signed @ lvl20

You can't see me · Jan 01, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Normally I'd be totally and utterly against this. I would be saying that you need to work for rewards if you want to access them. I would be saying that characters are separate and should stay that way in the storyline.. but..

The Storyline is linear through and through. If you start over, you basically turn the tape back over and listen to the exact same song again. Nothing changes. Proving you can do it once or twice is not annoying, but when I have to prove that I've beat a campaign after beating it 9 times, then it's just /fail.

Sadly, I agree. /Signed.

Biostem · Jan 01, 2008, 04:39 AM // 04:39

What if it wasn't linear? What if the rewards for completing the missions was better?

What if the "better" skills didn't become available until you've done a certain # of missions or quests?

I don't like the idea of having all the rewards handed to you on a silver platter w/ no work. Even though it's a game, there should be a certain amount of effort required to earn the good items or skills...

Red · Jan 01, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Trucker
I'm working on that. You've noticed that there is a starting section at the bottom of my original post with such thoughts. However, I want to put fundamental positions there. Thus, while Lyra and I have
gone back and forth, I really don't think anything significant has come that would be significant as a footnote in the OP.

Also, with regards to your point two, I can only guess--for we're not privy to the higher talks of the devs. I can only offer conjecture... but Factions is overall a very small campaign. It's already much more feasible to complete it in a day than it is to finish, all the way through, Prophecies or Nightfall. Can you imagine what Factions would be like if it were runnable?

In any case, I would contend that the situation is different now. Factions was introduced during a peak in Guild Wars life cycle, as was Nightfall. We're now in a slow decline (or at least not a growth period)... as I have said before, my suggestion is aimed with the objective of helping slow the attrition of those who don't want to grind more campaigns, but would like a more PvP-esque "roll what you want and go" approach to high-end missions.

Lyra
I don't believe there should have to be a replacement cost. Nor do I necessarily think the first and only response should be "you don't like it? Go play something else". It's also short-sighted to say such a things like "they aren't enjoying their stay. They would be happier elsewhere." Such a statement, for example, invalidates the feelings of those who, like me, enjoy playing the high-end areas with guildmates and alliancemates. It's fine to think what you do, but it's not so considerate when you make an arbitrary statement that, again, amounts to "you don't like it? Tough!"

And, yes, I am comparing the two. Yes, it's quite obvious that the change to PvP had other factors at play than there are here. However, there are also common elements between the two such that they are comparable. In both situations:

For both cases
Lesser Option: Use an instant PvP with one armor set / Play your finished characters
Greater Option: Have a PvE character multiple armor and weapon sets / Play any character you wish
Cost for both: Put in hours and hours and hours in the campaigns to build characters up

I think a solution similar to the first case could be successfully implemented for the second. And finally, I realize it's End Game content. But ya know... for someone like me, who's gotten to the end several times now on several different characters, I'd like to just try a different profession without spending all that time getting to the end content all over again.

Tooplex
Your pessimism accomplishes nothing. You can't make a post of two sentences reading "bad things would happen" followed by "the game would die" and expect that to contribute anything to the discussion. There is the possibility of bugs in every change to the game--Canthan Ambassador Guild Hall NPCs, anyone? The point is to find as many of those bugs as possible before you implement the change, and close them up as quickly as possible after any are found.

Cybernigma
Yes, thank you! I had not even thought of Tabula Rasa's Character Cloning, but it's sort of the same idea, isn't it? Saving people the grind by letting them use such a method where the work you put into one character suddenly becomes the starting point for others. ^_^

Fox
Excellent summary on the points and dilemmas at play. As to your final thought... well, lol at you. I actually have heard one or two people complain about how hard mode was account wide; and character specific certainly would have made more sense in that respect. And yet, doesn't the current setup of Hard Mode sort of set a precedent? That after putting a time investment in one character, other characters are able to reap some of the benefits? It's almost the same sort of thing... allowing later characters to access content faster, in an effort to provide more options to the player to choose whether they want to raise a new level 20 in normal mode or skip straight to hard...

************************************************** **

Sonata
Ah, thank you for your reply! I find it truly thought out and well-written, even though it is clearly the devil's advocate of posts. And moreover, I am as pleased to find you polite as intelligent. There's a bit of emotion in this thread, isn't there? Please forgive me, but my reply is going to be shorter than your own--partially because some of the points you raise are also in discussion from other posts, and others because I don't have the skill and wit to answer you on.

As to Class Experience, I can only answer that for myself, I would be willing to take that trade off where more people with less experience are running around, since that would mean also that competent people would be able to do the same. You used your mesmer as an example. I myself play mesmer in my GvG guilds. It's rather hard for me to compare myself to an expert PvE mesmer as yourself; but I can also say with confidence that I could deal with PvE monsters, which are much more predictable than humans.

What's more, we've got nooblets in higher areas anyway, who have SOMEHOW--via gold, friends, chance, AFKing, or simply having the good fortune of finding a party of seven others who were able to undo the harm the nooblet caused--made it to high end areas. Again, I've had some... pretty poor performers, even in FoW, Urgoz, Domain of Anguish, and so forth.

Quote:

If you provide the ability to skip content, what content are you drawing interest too? Barely a handful of single areas in 3 massive chapters? That hardly seems like a balance of interest.

So sorry, if that's the case, then was there much point to the "other" content in the first place, except as content to be completed before one could finally play in the areas you suggest are of highest interest? As I had discussed previously with either someone else or Lyra... should we be -too- concerned with areas which have no appeal in and of themselves?

I am intrigued by your suggestion for The Deep and Urgoz Warren. What about Domain of Anguish or Underworld/Fissure? Maybe we could have NPCs for those? While that solution falls a bit short of what I'm suggesting, it also is obviously made with a similar focus.

However, I suppose we must agree to a fundamental departure from one another's thought processes as you talk about the "elite" area function that is character specific. I would posit that part of the reason these seem sancosanct as character-specific elite areas is simply that they have always been that way. What if, from day one, these areas had always been like PvP unlocks--where as soon as one character opened either Team Arenas or Zin Ku Corridor, all characters could then access it? Would people really have complained, do you think, about the accessibility?

As far as armor, you have an excellent point. However, again we have a fundamental difference in priorities. At this stage in the game's life cycle, I would trade an increased ability to play where and how one wants, over a decreased prestige in armor. (And anyway, if you want Elite Kurzick armor say, it certainly takes -much- longer to farm the materials and platinum than it does actually getting a newly rolled character to Vasburg Armory, doesn't it? So it really retains the bulk of its meaning of "Look what I worked for and attained!"))

***

It's not difficult for players to get to AreaX (I hope!)... it's just bloody tedious and, for many of us--and apologies to Lyra because she's going to have fits over this--it's just not a fun thing to do over and over and over. And while you refer to a version of your class experience concern with your sample paragon, it also doesn't necessarily hold true. You don't have to play a character through PvE in order to be able to run it effectively. I know many people who, though they have only one PvE, could effectively play most of the professions--and alternatively, haven't you met monks and warriors and eles at Hell's Precipice who don't have the foggiest idea how to make an effective build, must less run one?

Additionally, a feature that lessens the time necessary for a player to play content hardly implies a conflict with the Skill > Time mantra. At least, it's not nearly that simple.

***

This is where you disappointed me, sir. Why are you explaining to me how the value of these items would plummet, when I myself stated in my original post, just one frickin sentence later: "but we're talking about the loss of a market of 10k items..." Lol, please don't waste your time like that.

But as to your main point: first of all, you did fail to allow for secondary options. What if, for example, only characters that were, say, a month old could receive the end game items? True, that puts a substantial delay over the current situation where I could roll an ele today, and reasonably expect to get an Amulet of the Mists within the week. However, given the ease of reaching the end and, supposedly, my increased interest in playing more professions I might not have otherwise... wouldn't that balance out? It would certainly stop a market flood as well, and this is only one quick option.

***

Just hitting a few more points.

You say a few times in your post that "should this fall onto ANet's shoulders for blame?". Please understand, I'm not saying it was a flawed mechanic the game started with. I'm simply pointing out the current situation--as I can best see it--and, with a concern in mind, raising a possible solution. And as far as it falling on ANet's shoulders to fix... well, keep in mind that at the end of the day, a business seeks to increase its net income (of course both in the current month as well as making sure not to alienate the prospective buyers of GW2). This isn't about laying blame or responsibility, but rather about meeting the company's objectives.

Though, I thought you displayed superior insight with the paragraph:

Quote:

This is at the heart of it all and is why your post is no more right, or wrong, than mine. You make a very fair arguement that limitations to you shouldn't happen. I agree just as I'm sure you wouldn't want to limit my gameplay either. However, there has to be realization that the downfalls and negatives are felt by everyone in the game no matter if you're new, old, those who would use it, and those who don't. This is the fine line that has to be walked, not by us, but by Anet.

You do an excellent job pointing out the dangers inasmuch as my post admittedly favours the possible benefits. I salute you, sir.

Red · Jan 01, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Tsk tsk, Holly. Thank you for the support, but you must also be ready to listen to all perspectives. You would do well to listen to Tyla immediately after your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moral55

Who cares about end games items 5k? OMG And runs? You can't run to halve of these places anyways and if a change in the environment kills a service... well to bad sucks to be you.

........ you're not helping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

There are "meta-level" implications that a feature like this would cause. It would affect *everyone* who plays the game, and as such, even though that wouldn't use it would be affected.

... That example is an extreme one, but it's not unreasonable. I think what is needed is a happy medium; a way to speed through content a bit more quickly your second or later time around. I think the idea of a limited number of skips for subsequent characters would work, or perhaps branching paths to the end game (some having less missions) would also work.

Overall, though, a wholesale free pass straight to the end would damage the game...

A most reasonable reply. Guru posters, what are your thoughts on this possibility? A middle path that doesn't skip through the game, but makes additional PvE characters easier to raise?

Bio, I'm adding your thoughts to the bottom of my OP.

Sora267 · Jan 01, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

I'm working on my 6th PvE character. It's really annoying to go through the SAME STORY for the fourth time just to be able to PLAY. I love the idea of the NPC ferry from the first page, so /signed for that. Most of the arguments against this are pretty much shot down when you realize that usage of it is completely voluntary.

Biostem · Jan 01, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Here's an idea:

You know how in Factions and NF you are given the option to skip the tutorial, well what if, once you hit the mainland/main part of the game, if you've already beaten that campaign, you are given the option to take the "express route". This express route would contain vastly fewer missions and/or consist of a set of special-access areas that can be used to circumvent the main series of missions. Taking this route would still get you to some key missions, but overall it'd be fewer.

I just don't want to see all missions essentially become "1st timer's only". I also don't want to see people start complaining how little content there is or how much the game sucks because they can't get a team. I know you can't please all the people all the time, but how close can we get?

lyra_song · Jan 01, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

Lyra
I don't believe there should have to be a replacement cost.

So you essentially want something for nothing?

Quote:

And, yes, I am comparing the two. Yes, it's quite obvious that the change to PvP had other factors at play than there are here. However, there are also common elements between the two such that they are comparable.

No. Just no. Stop please.

PvE characters had an advantage in PvP (in fact they still do). This is imbalanced. This is a game breaking problem.

Because of this, things HAD to be changed, if the integrity of a balanced design is to be maintained.

Your idea is far from balancing ANYTHING.
Your idea attempts to solve a problem that is created by the USER, not the GAME.
Your idea doesnt fix ANYTHING.

If you want to add a radical game-changing concept, I wanna see a much deeper reason than "Because I want to."

Quote:

But ya know... for someone like me, who's gotten to the end several times now on several different characters, I'd like to just try a different profession without spending all that time getting to the end content all over again.

That would be nice.
I'd like a warrior with 4 pips or energy.
I'd like an assassin with 80 AL.
Not very balanced ideas, but they sure would be nice.

Getting the reward without the effort breaks fundamental game design.

You can't see me · Jan 01, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

What if it wasn't linear? What if the rewards for completing the missions was better?

What if the "better" skills didn't become available until you've done a certain # of missions or quests?

I don't like the idea of having all the rewards handed to you on a silver platter w/ no work. Even though it's a game, there should be a certain amount of effort required to earn the good items or skills...

I agree, but the question we're not asking is "What if it was this way". Guild Wars is as it is now, and not how it could be, IF... you get the idea.

I don't like the idea, but seriously? What's the reward handed to you on a silver platter? Endgames item that are 5 plat now? Armors with the same stats as the docks or ascalon? I agree, there should be work with reward, but in the absense of reward, it's just pointless grind. Sure, the reward is finding out what happens and helping to make it happen, but I've done that already, 30 times now, 10 characters, three campaigns. Not all of them are through EoTN yet due to repetative boring crap. Why do I have to do it again? I can buy any skill I want with bathazar faction and tomes. I can buy any end game item for money it would take me 1/20th of the time it would take me to finish the campaign. What's the use?

Red · Jan 01, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

So you essentially want something for nothing?

No. Just no. Stop please. PvE characters had an advantage in PvP. This is imbalanced. This is a game breaking problem.
If you want to add a radical game-changing concept, I wanna see a much deeper reason than "Because I want to."

That would be nice. I'd like a warrior with 4 pips or energy. I'd like an assassin with 80 AL. Not very balanced ideas, but they sure would be nice.

It makes sense that you see me as wanting something for nothing, because of our different views on the content. You seem to view that high-end content as a reward for playing/grinding/enjoying/trudging through the campaigns; whereas I see that content as the game itself. And still, you again and again continue to stay on your own ground, that there must be a cost for reaching that content. It appears you are yet unwilling to consider the high-end content as anything other than the treasure at the end of the rainbow.

And, did I not admit that there were other factors with the PvP changes? Significant changes, to be sure. And yet, there are common elements between them.

I've given you reasons beyond "because I want to". I thought the original post laid out a few more objective reasons than simply that.

You, however, have from the very beginning of this thread taken a tone of condescension and impatience with me, ignoring common decency and talking down to me the entire time. Your first real reply to me made an attempt to address the points individually, but since then I've felt a rather insulting current from your posts. You're ignoring my reasoning (as evidenced by "I wanna see a much deeper reason than 'Because I want to'") while continuing to insist on a viewpoint we fundamentally disagree on.

It's fine for us to do so; indeed, I had to do so with Sonata on a point or two. However, while Sonata, Greyfox, and Biostem (for examples) have managed to give clear reasoning and raised concerns while remaining respectful, your posts read like so much emotional rage.

No matter how stupid you think my arguments (or me?), please try to restrain your aggression to your line of argument.

-Sonata- · Jan 01, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

I will be less long winded this time, promise, as there isn't much else to add without simply playing forum ping-pong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

I am intrigued by your suggestion for The Deep and Urgoz Warren. What about Domain of Anguish or Underworld/Fissure? Maybe we could have NPCs for those? While that solution falls a bit short of what I'm suggesting, it also is obviously made with a similar focus.

DoA is designed to be an end game elite area. New areas rewarded to your character after defeating Abbadon. No to NPC's on that. DoA's design serves its purpose well. UW and FOW are already extremely easy to enter and get to especially with the new favor system and passage scrolls. As it stands now, those two areas are nicely balanced in taking just a small amount of time to get there and yet still easily accessible.

Urgoz and Deep are just, well, "there". Kind of like Challenge missions. The difference being that Urgoz and Deep are clearly (at least to me) designed to be guild related activities. Two factions, two missions, based upon your alliance. Very similar to AB. Because they're so heavily weighed upon the Guild aspect it would make plenty of sense to add these missions to your Hall. Still with the cost, of course, but more easily accessible nonetheless.

Those two missions have always been the one area in Guild Wars I've always had an issue with in their placement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

It's not difficult for players to get to AreaX (I hope!)... it's just bloody tedious and, for many of us--and apologies to Lyra because she's going to have fits over this--it's just not a fun thing to do over and over and over.

And as I stated before, I agree, redundant game play can suck. I don't look forward to playing the Shing Jea island for the 8th time anymore than the next.

I grind my teeth thinking of the next time I have to do Arborstone. Honestly, I hate that mission with a passion.

But again, this is where it starts to sound like "I'm just to lazy to earn it, so I want it given to me now" and the proposed solution to this is to have Anet change the game mechanics to cater to that and is where I start to disagree. It shouldn't be Anets responsibility to say "Ok, we're sorry you're bored, here, have it all now".

I know that's not the argument you're trying to make, but that's how it's coming across and what it's looking like is main reason for suggesting this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

This is where you disappointed me, sir. Why are you explaining to me how the value of these items would plummet, when I myself stated in my original post, just one frickin sentence later: "but we're talking about the loss of a market of 10k items..." Lol, please don't waste your time like that.

Ms. And It was more than an explination, it was an example of what one deems as insignificant IS significant to others and how that one area can ripple into other areas. How it compounds itself due to this proposed solution to bordem. The loss of any market, 500g or 100K is still a loss of a market that makes an impact, which can impact another, then another, and another. Just as Gas prices ripple into other markets, not just automotive, or transport. Produce, textiles, delivery, utilities, and so on. That was the point.

It was not a waste of time and I'd appreciate better wording in your response in the future. Certain use of words can cross the lines of taking a mature debate and making it a flame fest. I was very careful in making my original post as to not come off as cross, or condescending. Please return that respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

... well, keep in mind that at the end of the day, a business seeks to increase its net income (of course both in the current month as well as making sure not to alienate the prospective buyers of GW2). This isn't about laying blame or responsibility, but rather about meeting the company's objectives.

Only when that income can be sought without the risks being to great. That's not to say risks aren't taken, but they're measured against the return. Also, I fail to see how the company is not already meeting its objectives & if it's not, how this one change would suddenly make it meet those objectives.

Real life speaking now; I'm not going to make sweeping changes to my Business and how it works just to cash in on a few extra dollars. If the risk is far to great compared to the chance and level of possible income, the change won't be made.

There is huge risk in making this proposed change as it stands and not worth the possible extra few dollars it may make from character slots.

In regards to GW2, people are already foaming at the mouth over any little thing they see as wrong, or evil Anet doing something to kill things. Conspiracy theories and everything else. This is nothing new. It started at the first announcement of GW2 and it's still far away.

I've stated in numerous other threads, Anet, like any other online gaming company, is often damned if they do, damned if they don't, when dealing with a large community. WoW has it, Star Wars went through it BIG time after making such sweeping changes to its game (I was part of it), Final Fantasy, Knight Online (was part of that too) and so on.

Even under the assumption the insta-ferry ever makes it, it wouldn't be long before the next hot topic raises the blood pressure of other players that would use the "They won't get my money when GW2 comes out!".

Cater to one group, alienate another. Try to cater to the ones you just alienated, the ones you originally catered too get offended and alienate themselves.

Cheeri-o.

gone · Jan 01, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36

creating laziness is all this 'feature' will implement. it's a joke. if you're really, truely tired of dragging those toons thru areas...delete them. you're only looking to get the ends without doing the means.

/gasp...I always thought it was about GAMEPLAY./endgasp- not making a character, just to run it as fast as you can to/thru an area...to just stand around...it's like; Ummm, let's hurry up. and wait. or something.

rolling a character, running it thru 'the game' has become the norm...because plain old running has been allowed to go on for so long. hence this thread.

-why on earth would I sign it? it's just...LoL.

Red · Jan 01, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Sonata
Ah, so sorry, I did not fully realize the real point of your attention to the end game green market. Now that I more clearly see where you're going... I'm not sure my position there changes, but it certainly seems more significant to me, now; and hopefully anyone else who also failed to read your post correctly as I did.

Given your sympathy for 8th Time Shing Jea, though, I'm surprised you haven't paid attention to Biostem's suggestion? What do you think about some sort of middle ground which allows second, third, and other PvE characters to skip tiny sections of the game--a mission here, a quest there--and thus allows other PvEs to be more expedient, but not nearly to the dramatic and allegedly gamebreaking point that my original suggestion created?

As an example, you seem to hate Arborstone with a passion. On the other hand, I rather like that mission and have never found it all that difficult or boring. As a result, with such a system, you might burn your mission skip on Arborstone, while I would not; and maybe it would even out?

I look forward to your reply.

~ Red

lyra_song · Jan 01, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

It makes sense that you see me as wanting something for nothing, because of our different views on the content. You seem to view that high-end content as a reward for playing/grinding/enjoying/trudging through the campaigns; whereas I see that content as the game itself. And still, you again and again continue to stay on your own ground, that there must be a cost for reaching that content. It appears you are yet unwilling to consider the high-end content as anything other than the treasure at the end of the rainbow.

And, did I not admit that there were other factors with the PvP changes? Significant changes, to be sure. And yet, there are common elements between them.

I've given you reasons beyond "because I want to". I thought the original post laid out a few more objective reasons than simply that.

You, however, have from the very beginning of this thread taken a tone of condescension and impatience with me, ignoring common decency and talking down to me the entire time. Your first real reply to me made an attempt to address the points individually, but since then I've felt a rather insulting current from your posts. You're ignoring my reasoning (as evidenced by "I wanna see a much deeper reason than 'Because I want to'") while continuing to insist on a viewpoint we fundamentally disagree on.

It's fine for us to do so; indeed, I had to do so with Sonata on a point or two. However, while Sonata, Greyfox, and Biostem (for examples) have managed to give clear reasoning and raised concerns while remaining respectful, your posts read like so much emotional rage.

No matter how stupid you think my arguments (or me?), please try to restrain your aggression to your line of argument.

All the reasons in your OP attempt to only mask your true intentions for what you want for yourself which you have already stated plainly. I've seen through your "reasoning" as merely an excuse to sell your idea and gather support.

Your idea has nothing to do with preserving the game/increasing sales/etc.

Its about you wanting to do what you want in a game not designed to cater to such a demand.

If you find me seeming aggressive, its not meant to be a personal attack of any sort. I don't like your post. I don't like your idea. But that doesn't mean I don't like you.

But this type of idea has been posted many times before and has existed in many forms and it all boils down to the same thing.

I want to do (insert something that goes against basic game design)
It doesnt hurt you.
Let me do what I want.
You can keep doing what you're doing

And dont think im a purely coldhearted bitch.

I know this idea, ive posted one myself: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10088516

But my idea seeks to increase replayability by changing up the multiple replays by making it harder/changing things/new quests
However even that idea is flawed since its still repetition in its very core.
Something you cannot escape no matter how much you shorten the game progress.

CyberNigma · Jan 01, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Some of these ppl must really think Richard Garriot is one of the worst designers in the field. His new Character Cloning System(the thing everyone is referring to as being revolutionary in the MMO market) pretty much does this and much much more by saving branches so you never have to do the beginning again unless you absolutely want to. So many people must be thinking he is catering to the pure lazy people out there. Nevermind that they have to get to that branch in the first place. GW may be revolutionary and Tabula Rasa may be revolutionary, but the players are the same, stuck in the same box as all the other games and gamers before them.

A person that gets protector of all 3 continents and grandmaster of all 3 continents on a character is not being 'given' anything for free. He/she has been there done that. Quick thinking of multiple characters as different people. They are the same character. Too many people keep slowly but surely pushing GW into their comfort zone of previous 'standard' rules of MMOs. That's the very reason many of us came to this game because it was different. Now we're looking at a GW2 that is going even further back to the standard MMO with its high leveling system (unofficially of course).

There's a theory posted somewhere by Richard Bartle, maybe I can find it later, that people leave MMOs for various reason and go to new MMOs that don't have those faults. Yet eventually, those very people will slowly but surely press to add features similar to those that caused them to leave the other games in the first place, eventually ending up with the same thing. If you don't know who he is then don't bother analyzing the statement.

Also, the game isn't an all-or-nothing take-it-or-leave-it item. Too many people state if you don't like part of the game you must not like any of the game so don't play it. Almost all games have parts that people like and don't like. In WoW (since it's brought up here quite a bit) there are many people that really just like raiding or twinked pvp and so everything else is just a chore to get to where they have fun. Fury screwed this up to by not giving the players UAX from the get-go in a PvP-only game. It made them 'work for them'. Guess what, it's pretty much dead.

Some people like the replayable parts of the game, but would like to play them with different types without paying through the less-than-replayable parts of the game...the quests and storyline.

As far as end-game items, Prophecies doesnt have them, Nightfall requires you to do the missions in order (regardless of how you get to the mission locations), and Factions can probably be fixed to work like Nightfall. If you get to a mission area in nightfall and haven't done its predecessor in the storyline then (if I remember correctly) you can't do it even though you are there.

For people that are worried (and there is probably good reason here) about people exploiting the 'free treasure chests' in nightfall - fine, take them out, all of them or find another way to restrict them.

Your new characters already don't require any work for their equipment as they can get cash from previous characters. You don't have to work for many of their skills as they've either been bought in the in-game store or unlocked by another character, hence they can go to any skill trainer with respect to each continent and buy them without getting to where they are first found in the actual game. Hell, you don't even have to buy weapons if you bought the special/collectors editions (or the GotY edition for 5 bux in the store).

ArenaNet allows players now to buy every skill in the game and allow your henchies to use them. That's henchie UAX in PvE. That is probably the most 'imbalancing' act so far in the entire game, if you consider any of this stuff unfair and imbalancing. In-Game Store - 5 Dollars - all characters on the account share outpost unlocks amongst each other. or all future characters have all outposts unlocked once a character unlocks them/gets protector/whatever.

This is a very intereszting idea and many people just want to go back to the old ways. GW is dead. This is a good oppourtunity for ArenaNet to experiement and realy explore the boundaries of the MMO scene while preparing to release GW2. There's really not a whole lot at this point that they can do to make stop whoever is going to buy GW2 from buying it or get those that aren't going to buy it to instead buy it (from GW player base) san subscription. Experiment. Try it out. It was a good step to map travel in the first place. Take another step. After I've eaten my full meal (including veggies) with my first character, let me eat as much dessert as I can with my other ones.

EDIT: I read Lyra's post after I posted this. I like your ideas as well. Hell, if GW wasn't in maintenence mode (or death mode whatever) I'd suggest they do that if they could. I know there will be no major changes though. Unlocking outposts can be done because I believe it works on Battle Isles.

I think the key is that this industry is just like any other and ArenaNet is just like any other company that starts out revolutionary because they're on the bottom, make it big, then stop taking so many risks in the future. That's where I see GW2 going. GW though is a good place to take some risks at this point in the game since GW2 is on its way in and GW is not. In the end they'll probably conform to the norm till a new startup comes out and rocks everything again.

Red · Jan 01, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Lyra

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

All the reasons in your OP attempt to only mask your true intentions for what you want for yourself which you have already stated plainly. I've seen through your "reasoning" as merely an excuse to sell your idea and gather support.

Your idea has nothing to do with preserving the game/increasing sales/etc. Its about you wanting to do what you want in a game not designed to cater to such a demand.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10088516

Ooo, I like your idea in that link! It even has the additional benefit, for the more RP-inclined among us, of linking your characters in the game to each other.

However, I think you sell me short. Many requests in life will serve multiple purposes. One of the most effective methods of communicating is not to insist on your own rights or needs, but rather to show how your proposal is mutually beneficial--or, to be more direct, how it helps the person whose aid you are requesting.

I don't believe I ever hid how such a feature would benefit me personally. As you said, I stated it plainly. However, it's also a good idea to look at the various perspectives, and see how suggestions would affect--and hopefully benefit!--other people rather than just yourself. It was with that mindset that I crafted my original reasonings. So, in that regard, is there anything wrong with doing such a thing? From your reply, it sounds as if you think doing that is pointless, since the entire motivation is self-centered laziness or whatever you want to call it. Am I correct in my interpretation?

ALSO

What do you think of the idea Biostem posited earlier--a sort of PvE credit that would allow you to skip a mission here or a quest there? It aligns somewhat with your link, doesn't it, only it lacks the story-integrated NPC feature your thread offered.

Edit for Cyber
Ah, your points are well-stated and novel to the thread. ^_^ Thank you for your post, sir.

lyra_song · Jan 01, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

CyberNigma, if GW was a classless system, I would agree with your points. But its not.

Your elementalist isnt your monk. Multiple characters are distinctly different.

Theres the MMO classles system implements an illusion of a classless based system based on skill trees and limited attribute points that can be reset and redistributed to anyway you see fit and create builds and characters that can equip and use anything, depending on how its built.

Theres still classes, but the definition of a character has been wiped clean so you can turn one class into another simply by changing armors/weapons/attributes.

That kind of game is not guild wars.

CyberNigma · Jan 01, 2008, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

CyberNigma, if GW was a classless system, I would agree with your points. But its not.

Your elementalist isnt your monk. Multiple characters are distinctly different.

Theres the MMO classles system implements an illusion of a classless based system based on skill trees and limited attribute points that can be reset and redistributed to anyway you see fit and create builds and characters that can equip and use anything, depending on how its built.

Theres still classes, but the definition of a character has been wiped clean so you can turn one class into another simply by changing armors/weapons/attributes.

That kind of game is not guild wars.

Yeah that's the big difference between TR and GW in that TR starts from one point and branches whereas GW starts from multiple points and semi-converge. I mentioned in a previous post that it would have to be a Character Morph as opposed to the straight Character Clone system TR does. I don't think they should forcibly hold someone's hand though. If they think they can play a monk from the get-go and are playing with friends, more to them. That may even be a funny experience. If it's a serious run the people probably shouldn't be pugging in the first place but rather take on the namesake of the game and go with guildies.

Age of Conan though does appear to be going this route even with different archetypes. They haven't finalized it, but the very first character at least is to be a single player experience to learn the ropes of the game and the archetype. They haven't fully decided on whether to force new characters (especially of other archetypes) to go through the quests and missions but they do mention that there will be benefits to doing so. Some people believe people should play through story lines in games like HALO series or even the UT arenas before being allow to play with other people so you don't get crap on your team. Part of it is hand-holding and part of it is self protection. Either way, it would suck ass to have to.

A person that has played through the game that rolls a polar opposite at the same time as a brand new player is still going to be better at playing that character until they converge somewhere down the line and it becomes more about the player's skill and not time spent. In PvP only one character has to make it through the trials to the RA, TA, and finall HA, not each class you intend to play. Yet, people unlock them and then switch back and forth to other classes all the time.

EDIT: I like throwing ideas into the mix, but I guess somewhere deep inside I know ANet isn't going to do anything major to GW any more unless they need an infusion of capital (which I doubt they need). That is until right before GW2 comes out in which case we will probably see a great resurgence of AdverQuests for GW2 and maybe even some kind of special events. They're probably pretty much done with GW. It would be nice to see GW do something like go the way of Minions of Mirth and the TMMOKIT or GarageGames' stuff, but that's just wishful thinking :-)

gone · Jan 01, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

/re-roll

the only way I'd ever go for this to be implemented is if there is rule to the system. say, for instance, you have ummm...*3k Logged hours* of gameplay, completed campaigns(however many you might own). In reality it could work...but then people would just want hours logged turned down.

*3k is a figure, as in 3 FULL campaigns, 1k hours per*

CyberNigma · Jan 01, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

An interesting experiment will be in WoW when they release WotLK and the Death Knight. That is pretty close to what I was referring to (not the whole WoW thing but the idea), not just the map travel. It will possibly be a completely different type depending upon which character meets the requirement (assuming they go with the gotta have a lvl 70 or 80 first). The way they keep compete idiots from getting a high level character out there that they can't play is that the DK supposedly has to compete some kind of challenge or series of quests (escaping from somewhere I think someone said) before you can play him at large.

If GW was still in dev mode it could work here, but possibly in GW2. A difficult mission or quest chain in order to play him/her elsewhere, kind of like the pre-searing/tutorial areas, but opposite in difficulty (hard instead of easy, a test instead of a tutorial).

EDIT: Of course in relation to my earlier comment about people turning the new MMO into their old MMO, this one's a bit off-track because the 'original MMO' is actually experimenting with a new type of gameplay, thus I'm only suggesting we take a look at this new type of gameplay and see if it works.

Heh, just thought of a good one. It doesn't remove all tedium, but it reduces it. Roll a new toon and he goes through n00b area (in the appropriate campaign) in hard mode. Once he gets off the island in HM he has access to the other places you've unlocked. Just give him the same buff they give them in EotN. If he can't or chooses not to, he can go the traditional route which of course means going the full traditional route. This solves the problems people mention about people not being able to play those classes. If they can't then they won't get off of the island any other way than normal. If they can, then there's no problem from that aspect. N00b islands don't take too long to get off of.